- NorCal Soccer.com
-- Forum: Cup Competition Discussion
--- Topic: Movement away from CYSA State Cup ( 24 posts )

Only one page to show.

Lurker - December 05th, 2008 17:12 GMT


There has been an interesting development this year in the CYSA State Cup that has pretty much been under everybody's radar. Over all team numbers for the younger age groups are down compared to last year. For U12 and U13 age groups (boys and girls) there isn't a big difference. For the U11 age group, the decrease in the number of teams is significant. Here is how this year's and last year's numbers look

GU11

2008 - 56
2009 - 16

BU11

2008 - 63
2009 - 32

GU12

2008 - 62
2009 - 55

BU12

2008 - 59
2009 - 56

GU13

2008 - 71
2009 - 60

BU13

2008 - 64
2009 - 60

Overall, 96 fewer teams are playing State Cup this year in the younger age groups. The cost to register for the State Cup tournament went up this year, but not enough to offset this loss in revenue to CYSA. More important than that, however, is the HUGE reduction in teams in the U11 age category. In particular, notice the absence of some of the bigger names in youth soccer in NorCal (e.g., Mustang). Is this the start of a new trend? Is it a logical extension of the creation of a viable NorCal Premier Fall League? Inquiring minds want to know...
Soccernut - December 05th, 2008 18:10 GMT


Nice work with the stats Lurker.  I wonder if the proliferation of B teams that occured in the last few years is a factor.  When this first started the B sides went to state cup.  They seemed to trail off after a couple of first round exits. 

Is it a trend? Only if others follow.  I think SJSC and BOCA would love to move away and bet they are in good company. 

It might be as simple the clubs realize u11 cups mean little and there are better thing to do..



Lurker - December 05th, 2008 18:57 GMT


From U12 and up, B teams might be a factor. The fact that every age/gender is down at least a little indicates something...

For U11, there are some major A teams that are not playing. Teams for this age from the same club last year did play. If you take a look at the NorCal Premier Fall league, this might explain things. Teams that do not play in a CYSA fall league cannot sign up to play in State Cup. There were 53 teams playing in the NorCall boys U11 division (Premier or Gold). There were 46 U11 girls teams playing in NorCal. Most of these teams, I would think, are not even registered under CYSA. 

It's hard to take away something that somebody has experienced and is used to. It may be hard to sell the idea of not playing State Cup to teams that played previously. For the older aged teams (at least from the comments on this forum), State Cup is the ONLY thing teams consider important. New teams that have never been there and done that won't know what they are missing (or at least the parents wont).
Threads - December 05th, 2008 21:00 GMT


My daughter's U12 team is staying home from State Cup this year.  Our feeling is that they might go back as a U13 or U14, but at this age the girls are better served with a break for other sports or playing small-sided winter league.  I guess we fit into the "B" team agenda.

With respect to Norcal - many of our parents believe that Norcal is strictly for top 20 elite teams and wouldn't offer good playing opportunity for a mid-tier Abronzino team.  If Norcal wants to expand they might consider some PR to encourage teams like our to try their spring league - maybe reaching out to coaches. 

Doing away with the spring league double header games would help their cause, too.  That alone would be reason for us to stay with the spring CYSA league.
Lurker - December 05th, 2008 21:12 GMT




------ QUOTE from  Threads, December 05th, 2008 21:00  GMT ------
My daughter's U12 team is staying home from State Cup this year.  Our feeling is that they might go back as a U13 or U14, but at this age the girls are better served with a break for other sports or playing small-sided winter league.  I guess we fit into the "B" team agenda.

With respect to Norcal - many of our parents believe that Norcal is strictly for top 20 elite teams and wouldn't offer good playing opportunity for a mid-tier Abronzino team.  If Norcal wants to expand they might consider some PR to encourage teams like our to try their spring league - maybe reaching out to coaches. 
------ QUOTE END ------



For the U11 age groups, there were Premier and Gold divisions for the NorCal Fall league. For the U12 age groups, there were not enough teams for this (boy's and girls only had a Gold division). For anything older than U12, there aren't that many teams participating. My impression is that NorCal is focused on Clubs rather than Teams. Since the bigger clubs usually have an A and B team (sometimes more), they need to provide options for both levels of play. For smaller (less organized) clubs and independent teams, it may be harder to fit.


------ QUOTE START ------
 
Doing away with the spring league double header games would help their cause, too.  That alone would be reason for us to stay with the spring CYSA league.
------ QUOTE END ------



Absolutely the double header format has to go... To a certain degree, they have this due to the limited number of teams from the same geography (a team traveling 2+ hours may want two games instead of one). Hopefully someone from NorCal reads this forum so that they can gain from the feedback...
Threads - December 05th, 2008 21:37 GMT


Our club is MVLA - so we have lots of teams, although they are not as tightly organized as the A and B teams in some other clubs.

My daughter previously played Norcal spring league with another team and it seemed like an interesting option, but other parents have had experiences with mid-level teams being badly outclassed in Norcal and they are not inclined to go back.

Although certainly many teams that shy away from Norcal leagues still like the option of playing in US Club tournaments.
Mustang Dad - December 05th, 2008 23:10 GMT


Mustang has made a concious decision NOT to register any of this year's younger class 1 teams (U9-U11) with CYSA at all.  They have played their league seasons with US Club Soccer and are therefore ineligible to participate in State Cup.

By all accounts, the teams, parents, coaches and club leadership are universally very satisfied with how this has worked out.  Even with all its troubles and growing pains, competitively the NorCal leagues have been a much better experience.

It will be interesting to see if they extend this for next year's U12s.  At U12 and above the state cup winners are eligible to participate in Regionals.  Don't know if this will be enough of a reason to go back to CYSA.  It would also be interesting to see if they make a distinction with the A/B teams (as in only register the teams with a legit shot at Regionals in CYSA).  I certainly don't know, am not enough of an insider to influence, but it is interesting.
soccer4kids - December 06th, 2008 08:07 GMT
Edited by soccer4kids on December 06th, 2008 08:08 GMT

There is a very simple explanation for what happened to the U11s and State Cup.  NorCal decided this year to go "toe to toe" with CYSA and scheduled an obligatory two weekends of NorCal State Cup for the last 2 weekends of January and quarter-finals (in which all teams participate) for Feb 7th.  This directly conflicted with the preliminaries of CYSA State Cup.  This was done on purpose (admitted by NorCal) to get teams and clubs to make a choice.  Most decided to go with NorCal and therefore had to decline to do State Cup -- and as a result, most registered for NorCal fall league rather than CYSA.  There was a lot of discussion within and among clubs regarding this decision, with many waiting to see who would "jump ship" next before making the decision.  Ironically, NorCal has now told the U11s they can play these 3 second round games "any time" between Dec. 5th and Jan. 25th -- now that it is too late to do CYSA fall league and sign up for State Cup.  Very strategic way to help clubs move away from CYSA.  Some clubs kept a toe in both, however, with "A" teams playing in NorCal and "B" teams in CYSA...
Mustang Dad - December 06th, 2008 16:40 GMT


I know with confidence that Mustang's decision was made LONG before Herb published his schedules for NorCal Cup...  But I also believe that NorCal probably used the 'but Mustang's doing it' argument to press back when people complained about the NorCal Cup scheduling.
soccer4kids - December 06th, 2008 17:23 GMT
Edited by soccer4kids on December 06th, 2008 17:27 GMT



------ QUOTE from  Mustang Dad, December 06th, 2008 16:40  GMT ------
I know with confidence that Mustang's decision was made LONG before Herb published his schedules for NorCal Cup...  But I also believe that NorCal probably used the 'but Mustang's doing it' argument to press back when people complained about the NorCal Cup scheduling.
------ QUOTE END ------




Absolutely right re NorCal.  Not only that, but "they wanted us to do it this way...." 

One very positive aspect for our "mid-level" U11 team is that with NorCal there are 2 rounds of "reseeding" and therefore a lot more games than CYSA state cup, where most teams are out after 3.  With NorCal you play 3, perhaps are "outclassed" significantly in 1 or 2 games, then are reseeded, get more competitive, and by the time quarter finals roll around (in which all teams participate) each team should be extremely competitive with the quarterfinal opponent.  Better for development, it seems, rather than a "winner take all" in the first bracket of play.
soccer doctor - December 08th, 2008 05:31 GMT


Boca's U11's down only play US Club.  The current U12's played CYSA this year for the first time but have still opted NOT to play State Cup (at least the boys).  The best news is that next years U11's will continue to play 8-v-8 in NorCal.  Things are changing and the clubs are slowly leaving CYSA.  It's a much harder sell for the olders but it is coming.  See NorCal's website for the latest exciting developments.
fanoffutbal - March 05th, 2010 01:39 GMT




------ QUOTE from  Lurker, December 05th, 2008 17:12  GMT ------
There has been an interesting development this year in the CYSA State Cup that has pretty much been under everybody's radar. Over all team numbers for the younger age groups are down compared to last year. For U12 and U13 age groups (boys and girls) there isn't a big difference. For the U11 age group, the decrease in the number of teams is significant. Here is how this year's and last year's numbers look

GU11

2008 - 56
2009 - 16
2010 - 10

BU11

2008 - 63
2009 - 32
2010 - 13

GU12

2008 - 62
2009 - 55
2010 - 24

BU12

2008 - 59
2009 - 56
2010 - 31

GU13

2008 - 71
2009 - 60
2010 - 52

BU13

2008 - 64
2009 - 60
2010 - 54

------ QUOTE END ------




I took the liberty of adding in the 2010 information for the U11 - U13 from Lurkers first post in 2008.  Still a decline. 
 
Looking at the list of teams, some played both NorCal and CYSA. It was inferred that CYSA was just "B" teams, but looking at the winners, many are the top ranked teams and several top 5 teams in Northern CA. 

psyclone - March 05th, 2010 17:38 GMT




------ QUOTE from  soccer4kids, December 06th, 2008 17:23  GMT ------
 
With NorCal you play 3, perhaps are "outclassed" significantly in 1 or 2 games, then are reseeded, get more competitive, and by the time quarter finals roll around (in which all teams participate) each team should be extremely competitive with the quarterfinal opponent.  Better for development, it seems, rather than a "winner take all" in the first bracket of play.
------ QUOTE END ------




Those noncompetitive games can be really detrimental to a team, and if you have to play five-or-six noncompetitive games to get one or two, then things are really messed up.

My club's B team (my daughter is on the A team), got absolutely hammered after driving two hours for a game, then absolutely hammered another team in their bracket after it did the same (one shudders to consider what happened when those two teams met).

The parents concluded that Norcal was a waste of time. One told me, "We can find teams around here to crush us no problem." I think things got better after the seeding round, but that team is no longer playing Norcal after a mutiny by the parents.

The seeding round of Norcal state cup was so lopsided (for our team too, but the bench got a lot of good playing time so we didn't mind as much) that there has to be a better way.
Sacto Soccer Guy - March 05th, 2010 17:54 GMT


The local seeding (1st) round is what needs to be removed or modified in my opinion.  Many of the clubs already play in the same spring and fall leagues.  You had scenarios where teams played twice in the spring, twice in the fall, and then twice in the first 2 Norcal rounds.  That's 6 meetings between teams without tournaments.  Four of those meetings were between September and mid-November. 

One solution would be to knock out teams as you move through the opening rounds and have the premier teams join in later (like the FA Cup).  Does there really need to be a Norcal Cup winner in Bronze 3?  Congratulations, you played 9 extra games to prove you were the 65th best team in the competition. 
fanoffutbal - March 05th, 2010 20:03 GMT


The difference between playing those extra games is cost and logistics.  CYSA, you pay your registration fee and play.  CYSA arranges the location, the refs, the fields etc.  A no brainer, you show up, you play.

NorCal St cup takes the easy route  You pay to register, then they arrange a schedule, then you're on your own. 
The round-robin style that NorCal has set up is good. Gets the teams seeded correctly, but it can be a logistic nightmare for a team manager/coach going through the preliminary rounds.  Arrange and confirm your dates/times/field.  Then you pay for field, pay for refs.  If you need a turf field and some qualified refs, your a couple hundred bucks/game. 
No skin off their backs if you play more games, your paying for it as you go vs. just once at registration like CYSA.  It all adds up, but worse if your going to see your team demoralized in the first rounds. 

I would like to see CYSA arrange it so the top two teams from every flight goes to the next round.  With the lack of a good job of initial seeding, there are some very good #2 teams that get eliminated way too early.
fanoffutbal - March 15th, 2010 17:31 GMT


Here is where we are with the olders over the last 3 years.  Drop off in most, but not all age groups.   

NorCal only has more teams registered in the U14B & U15Bs, but has fewer boys teams registered overall.  There are less than 50% of the girls teams in most brackets and no U17G bracket.  Did NorCal combine U17Gs and U18Gs to make a viable bracket of only 12 teams? Also, NorCal also excludes both U19 G & B brackets. 

Looks like clubs that are playing their youngers in NorCal, are keeping their olders in CYSA.  To me this reads that teams are staying in for the points for rankings and going for the National Championships that are only availble U14 and up.


GU14
2008 - 68 
2009 - 63 
2010 - 48
NC - 36

BU14 
2008 - 67 
2009 - 60 
2010 - 47 
NC - 56

GU15 
2008 - 56 
2009 - 49 
2010 - 52 
NC - 24

BU15 
2008 - 68 
2009 - 60
2010 - 46
NC - 48

GU16 
2008 - 44 
2009 - 42 
2010 - 35 
NC - 16

BU16 
2008 - 68 
2009 - 58 
2010 - 47 
NC - 40

GU17
2008 - 34 
2009 - 36 
2010 - 32
NC - 28

BU17 
2008 - 58 
2009 - 63 
2010 - 43 
NC - 0

GU18 
2008 - 26 
2009 - 15
2010 - 24
NC - 12

BU18 
2008 - 32 
2009 - 29 
2010 - 35
NC - 16

GU19 
2008 - 11 
2009 - 19
2010 - 6
NC - 0

BU19 
2008 - 15 
2009 - 11 
2010 - 11
NC - 0
FortheLoveoftheGame - March 16th, 2010 01:50 GMT


I would like to see NorCal automatically seed the 'top 16' teams from the prior year past the first round of seeding which would solve some of the issues of logistics and some of the problems with teams driving 2 hours to get demolished.
First Touch - March 16th, 2010 07:41 GMT


Fannofutbal,

I think you are dead on....they will ride the best option for each age group as long as they can...and that is smart....as the teams grow up they will certainly shift to the best option period..

As for what I would like to see, there is no investment either way, I will speak boldly and say whatever the best option is for my child at that given time...which is why I think someone else so boldly said that parents will do what the coaches tell them....I think it is true because if you can't trust your coach and behind that the club then who  
fanoffutbal - March 16th, 2010 17:42 GMT


While the round robin match play is good for seeding, in some cases, it drags out way too long.  Better than 6 months with preliminary round robin play.  This is a more like a leugue and then some.

It doesnt affect the youngers so much, but it really affects the olders.

For one, the U14 teams are completely different teams now.  Most clubs went through tryouts in Feb and these teams are going into the second round  with completly different teams.
The U15 - U18 teams are going through tryouts in March /April.  During the second rounds/semi's and finals.  Which team do they bring to the big dance?  Of course its the new team!  Old players have moved on already.

Does NorCal really want clubs to go by the NorCal Premier schedule and hold off tryouts?  Is it me? or does that seem selfish?  Teams have to prepare for the next year which pretty much starts now!  Teams can't finish a seasonal year with NorCal St Cup in May, plan tyouts and then put a team together and be ready for US Club regionals in June. 
Or can they?

Well, all this and no points? Does it make sense?  To me CYSA State Cup makes better sense for the olders.  A stable calendar, reasonable price, points and a chance at a National Championship. Now all we need to work on is get to get CYSA to let the top two seeds from each bracket to move on, to make sure teams from loaded brackets are treated fairly.
First Touch - June 22nd, 2010 04:46 GMT


fanoffutbal,

I don't know.....have they been able to do it? What are your thoughts now that it is June?
First Touch - July 14th, 2010 07:36 GMT


fanoffutbal,

thoughts now that it is July?
fanoffutbal - August 02nd, 2010 04:51 GMT




------ QUOTE from  D6_USCLUB, July 28th, 2010 17:58  GMT ------
Well, it looks like NORCAL Girls League ended-up with very few teams: only 19 Premier teams within the GU15 - GU16 - GU17 range - GU16 only has 5! 
   
Under 14 Girls - Gold

27374342 Ajax United East Bay 97G (Ca) 
21595714 Ceres Earthquake FC CenCal 97G (CA) 
27036653 Davis Legacy Soccer Club Davis Legacy 97 Heat 
28565884 Odyssey South G96 Black (CA) 
27593045 SCA 97 girls (Ca) 
27906701 Stockton Storm FC 97 (CA) 

Under 14 Girls - Silver 3/4/5

26953756 Atletico Santa Rosa CHAOS (Ca) 
27449959 Central Marin United Silver '97 (CA) 
20898095 E.C. United Soccer Club Synergy (CA) 
21502664 SCA 97GN (Ca) 
28175804 SRU Cyclones (CA) 
21529723 Tri Valley SC Strikers 

Under 14 Girls - Silver 6/7/8 NW

28212918 Butte United Soccer Club Barracudas (CA) 
28191177 California Rush Soccer Club Nike 97 Girls (ca) 
20996382 Capital Athletic Soccer Academy Boca 96G (ca) 
28156040 Placer United Soccer Club Prestige 97 Girls Black 
20844554 Sacramento United Spitfire (CA) 
28254138 San Juan Soccer Club Spirits 97 White (CA) 

Under 14 Girls - Silver 6/7/8 SE

28706369 Cal Odyssey U14 GW (ca) 
21166660 El Dorado United Eclipse 97 (CA) 
27248777 Elk Grove Academy FC Illusion 
27462505 Galt FC Heat United (CA) 
21205778 Inter Rage Academy of Soccer SOL (CA) 
21298972 Tracy Futbol Club Tracy Triumph (CA) 
   
Under 15 Girls - Premier

26737502 Capital Athletic Soccer Academy Boca 95 (ca) 
26966604 Davis Legacy Soccer Club Velocity (CA) 
26851742 El Dorado United Eclipse 96 (CA) 
27090613 Elk Grove Academy FC Demolition (CA) 
27481724 Inter Rage Academy of Soccer IMPACT (CA) 
20973843 MFC Arsenal (CA) 
20998047 Sacramento United Extreme (CA) 
28254070 San Juan Soccer Club Spirits 96 Blue (CA) 

Under 15 Girls - Gold

21312471 Alliance FC Diamonds (CA) 
27537298 Cap FC United 95G (CA) 
26873429 Davis Legacy Soccer Club Davis Legacy Legends 
27480912 Inter Rage Academy of Soccer Thunder (CA) 
26867528 MFC Arsenal Red (CA) 
26802621 NCSA 96G Premier (CA) 
28174824 Pacific FC GU15 (CA) 
28254639 San Juan Soccer Club Spirits 96 White (CA) 
26819970 Woodland Soccer Club Starz (CA) 
   
Under 16 Girls - Premier

21144530 Cal Cougars California Cougars (CA) 
28047155 Davis Legacy Soccer Club 95 (CA) 
27481945 Inter Rage Academy of Soccer Shock 94 (CA) 
28187964 Placer United Soccer Club Prestige 95 Girls Black
28473251 SCA 95 girls (Ca) 

Under 16 Girls - Gold

26818445 Alliance FC Devils 94 (CA) 
27536992 Cap FC United '94G (CA) 
26749019 Capital Athletic Soccer Academy Boca 94G (ca) 
21167013 Elk Grove Academy FC Elk Grove NorCal 
26816595 MFC Vipers (CA) 
28970447 Newark Soccer Club Newark Mayhem (CA) 
27064387 Stockton Monarcas FC Barcelona 
28093353 Stockton Storm FC 95 (CA) 
27526491 Woodland Soccer Club Woodland United 95 (CA) 
   
Under 17 Girls - Premier

21312429 Alliance FC Devils 93 (CA) 
21396839 Cap FC CAP FC93 (CA) 
28002621 Davis Legacy Soccer Club Davis Legacy Shock 94 
26772332 El Dorado United Eclipse '94 (CA) 
28198733 Placer United Soccer Club Prestige 94 Girls Black 
29276591 SCA 94g (Ca) 

Under 17 Girls - Gold

26869709 Davis Legacy Soccer Club U17 white (CA) 
27482170 Inter Rage Academy of Soccer Edge (CA) 
26866463 MFC Dynasty (CA) 
27140745 MFC United (CA) 
28055569 NBEFC '93G Blue - REAL MADRID (CA) 
28011764 Sacramento United U17G Extreme (CA)
------ QUOTE END ------




I don't think there is much more to say.  There seems to be several newer clubs and in some cases several regions to make a viable league.  If I'm not mistaken, a team or two that are registered in both CCSL and NorCal Premiere.  Shall be interesting to see how scheduling works and how Nor Cal reacts.
First Touch - August 03rd, 2010 05:19 GMT


The new CYSA league is definitely viable and has more numbers...there are also several D1 teams who made the switch and those who did not....are there representatives out there who would make an argument either for or against the option they chose and why? BTW, newer clubs are awesome as they keep everyone on their toes but the newer teams do have a higher hurdle to jump then some..nais pas?
Everton - April 24th, 2012 02:44 GMT


Only getting worse in 2012! Can't believe the lack of competition in the U16B State Cup (other age groups as well). No wonder teams such as Santa Clara Sporting can win it 3 and 4 times in a row, ZERO competition. Sad very sad!
[ Go Back] [ Print page]
Powered by ICT 2003
Driven by ICT - Infinite Core Technologies